Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to another edition of Give an Ovation, the restaurant guest experience podcast, where I talk to industry experts to get their strategies and tactics you can use to create a five-star guest experience. This podcast is sponsored by Ovation, an operations and guest recovery platform for multi-unit restaurants that gives all the answers without annoying guests with all the questions. Learn more at OvationUpcom. And today I am so excited.

Speaker 1: 0:26

There's about a year ago I met a gentleman named perry rogers who is just a legendary sports marketing executive and agent known for being the business manager of tier one athletes I mean, like the biggest of the big and one of the biggest in more ways than one, being Shaquille O'Neal himself. And Perry, you manage everything from sponsorships to deals to businesses such as Big Chicken, which is how we met and for those who don't know, big Chicken is Shaq's restaurant brand and incredible chicken. I know that we're growing all over the place, but I first experienced big chicken in Vegas and it's right off the strip. Totally worth it to go there. But anyway, perry, welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm doing well.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Zach, it's always great to talk to you.

Speaker 1: 1:17

I feel honored that you got a haircut just for this podcast. Well, I don't really have a choice. Well, I don't really have a choice. Anyway, you have had such an interesting career and I had the privilege of interviewing you for like an hour in Vegas and that was such a fun conversation and so many things that I learned about there. But one of the things especially is in your career both personally and working with some incredible people you've seen a lot of overcoming of adversity and I'd love to get your philosophy on, like, how do you approach adversity, Because everyone who's listening to this podcast is going through something hard. What advice would you have and how do you approach that?

Speaker 2: 2:03

Yeah, you know, there was a deal that I was working on. So I got into this business in representing athletes because my childhood best friend was Andre Agassi, and Andre and I were working on a deal and it had gone south. This is in 1999. And my dad was involved in the deal and I had to call him and tell him that I thought that it was going to go under. And I called him up and he gave me some of the best advice I'll ever get.

Speaker 2: 2:33

I've always embraced that failure is necessary on your path to success. I've always known that. But my dad in this call he said well, you know, perry, I'm going to tell you something. I feel bad for you. I've always known that. But my dad in this call he said well, you know, perry, I'm going to tell you something. I feel bad for you.

Speaker 2: 2:48

I was quiet. I said why is that? And he said because a lawyer is not a good lawyer until he's lost a hundred cases and a business person is not a good business person until he screwed up a hundred deals. And you haven't had those failures yet and you think you know something. So here's how this is going to work If you learn from this and you recognize that you failed, you and I are fine. But if you don't have the requisite humility coming out of this, you and I are going to have a problem. The company was going under but the company was a public company and we got rid of the assets inside the company to the bank, kept the public vehicle and from 1999 to 2004, the guy that I was partnered with on the deal, ron Beretta, and I looked at probably 50 deals to put into this shell company and I never told my dad, never said a word to him. And in 2004, we met with a guy named Robert Sillerman and the stock had been at 10 cents for years.

Speaker 1: 3:47

This is kind of like the OG SPAC type thing. Right, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Yeah, it's just a shell company, that's all it is. And we met with Bob Sillerman and he said look, I'm going to buy Elvis Presley Enterprises, I'm going to put it in there. If I see a shared trade, we won't speak again. I said well, you don't need to worry about that. And the next thing we knew that deal closed. And then he bought American Idol and the stock went from $0.10 to it peaked out at around $31. And I called my dad and I said hey, I put in 33% more than you invested originally into your account. Plus, you still owe another two-thirds of your shares. So he ended up making more than four times all of this money. Did you just casually drop that you bought? I didn't buy it. Bob Stillerman did. We were just partners in the shell company. We got very lucky that Bob chose us for that deal.

Speaker 2: 4:47

I think that Ron and I did a pretty good job of knowing what not to go with. Obviously, we kissed a lot of frogs, but we got lucky and we kissed as prince. But regardless, that's an outcome that stems from the lesson. The lesson is the more important part, which is you've got to know failure is going to happen on your way to success, which is you got to know failure is going to happen on your way to success and you have to look at those events as opportunities to learn and get better. And if you can't look at it that way, you can never get to the land of success. It just doesn't happen. You don't go undefeated. What do you do.

Speaker 1: 5:28

You're on a 49 and 0 streak and you get knocked down and you're out and you lose and now you're 49 and 1. Or maybe it's the other way around, that you feel like your whole life has been 49 knockdowns. Having that perspective is good when you get up and you kind of shake the stars off when you're down in that moment for that day that week. How do you make sure that you get through that moment?

Speaker 2: 5:48

Yeah, you've got to care for yourself enough. You've got to love yourself enough to say this won't be me. That's a choice. There are a lot of things in life we don't get to choose, but effort we do and perspective we do. When you get knocked down, you didn't have the choice to get knocked down, but you get the choice of your perspective and your effort. And if you can look at it, the perspective needs to be okay.

Speaker 2: 6:13

I've learned a lesson here. We have a saying in our company we'll learn any lesson once, any lesson, I'll learn any lesson once. I won't learn it twice. And so if you have the perspective of, okay, I've learned this lesson, I now have a choice and my choice is going to be my effort and I am going to put one foot in front of the other. I am going to keep moving and I am not going to keep pouting. It won't do anybody any good if I spend time pouting about this. No one's going to benefit from me being sad. The world's not going to stop for me. No judge is going to walk in and say okay, everyone gather around, we're going to make it right. It's not going to happen. So since that's not going to happen. I've got to give myself the gift of effort I owe that to me that is so profound.

Speaker 1: 6:55

I want to put that on like a poster behind me, Like there's a lot of things in life we don't get to choose, but we do get to choose our effort and our perspective. Because that's interesting? Because from you and I chatting both in the interview and afterwards privately, I know that there have been things that you've dealt with in terms of adversity that it's not like, hey, this is a hard thing that we're going to deal with for the next couple of weeks, but like long drawn out, ongoing, painful things that are like every single day. It's like what's going to happen. What was your perspective in those kind of like longer term trials?

Speaker 2: 7:30

Yeah, I used to tell my kids when they were growing up, and that's what I tell my youngest now life is about holding on to the cliff. Every kid holds on to the cliff through third grade. What happens after that? People start to let go, and the one thing that I got to choose was holding on to the cliff. It is hard yeah, it's easy to let go. Sure, it's even attractive at times to let go, but it's not productive. It's never productive. I just thought well, I've got to hold on and this is going to be a prolonged period of having to hold on to this cliff. But if I keep momentum going, going back to that choice of effort, if I keep momentum going, I'll get back to where I want to be.

Speaker 1: 8:18

I love that. It's so powerful and I feel like one of your superpowers is not just perseverance but is curiosity and, as I have observed you engaging with other people, it's so interesting because you have had such an incredible career and you can go into any conversation and 999 times out of a thousand you've had a way more interesting career and you have way more insight on a subject. But I cannot think of a single person that asks more questions in a conversation than you. Talk to me about your curiosity, especially around other people, because I mean, I've seen you talk to people who I mean, quite frankly, they're like I guess in the eyes of the world, like are not very important, and you're like so what do you do? What did you learn about that? And it's just so interesting. Tell me about your curiosity. I feel like that's something that I just aspire to, barry.

Speaker 2: 9:15

I appreciate that. I'm fascinated by people because they all have a story and their story is a potential learning for everybody in your life. They're going to be able to pass on wisdom that maybe I can pass on to somebody. They've experienced it, and for me, I think that spending any time talking about me is boring. I know me. I spend 24 hours a day with me. That's not interesting at all. What's really interesting are people that I've never met and their perspective and what they've learned and how they learned it. That's why I love to ask people questions, because they're going to teach me so many things.

Speaker 2: 9:52

My dad used to say that if you watch a movie, you live someone's life in two hours, and I think that's true of any conversation you have with someone, as long as you are willing to ask the right questions. I think that that's what is fascinating just about people's willingness to share and their kindness and their vulnerability. Goodness, I mean what a gift we all can give each other that's how I look at it is. You're going to be able to be vulnerable with me and share a life lesson with me, but I didn't have to earn it. Wow, that seems like an incredible gift you're giving me.

Speaker 1: 10:26

What are some good questions for people who might not be as conversationally adept as you? What would you say are some good questions to ask people that you're meeting to peel out some of these life lessons?

Speaker 2: 10:39

Yeah, I think we're so quick to ask kind of more the factual questions like what do you do, where do you work, and I think it's so much more interesting to ask someone the more momentum questions, the ones that inspire us. So I'm more interested in asking people what have you learned recently? What's your job taught you? What have your colleagues taught you? What challenge do you think you've overcome? What challenge are you stuck on? I'm interested in that one. What is it that you feel like you keep hitting your head against, and why do you think that is? What would you attribute that to and how long do you think that's been a challenge for you? Those are really interesting questions that I think are where the good stuff can be mined.

Speaker 1: 11:21

And I have seen you dive into those questions within 30 seconds of meeting the CMO of a very large publicly traded company that we were with together, and I just thought that was so interesting to dive right in because what I found is so. For example, like my wife's grandmother, who has since passed, she was a very closed off person and I sat down with her for half an hour and I learned so many things that my wife never knew and that even her father never knew. I realized that it wasn't because there was anything special about me. It was just because I asked the question that no one else had asked, because people were afraid to ask her. What was it like marrying someone whose wife had just passed away and left you with two kids? What did you learn from that experience? And everyone was so afraid to ask her that because they didn't want to like upset her or offend her or whatever. I found that sometimes questions can offend people. What I found for the most part people want to talk if given the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 12:27

Yeah, they're dying to talk.

Speaker 2: 12:28

Honestly, most people don't feel that they are seen and heard at the level that they thought they would be, and so there's a gap between what they thought their future would look like as an adult and what it does look like, and I think that if you can get real with people quickly and I do think that the timing is important I think that it's okay.

Speaker 2: 12:52

What I've had to learn where I've crossed the lines is I've asked people questions at times that they are uncomfortable with, and I have wanted to drill down for the answer too much, and that's been the lesson for me, which is I'll get there quickly, but I'm trying to make sure I apply that if they're not comfortable, that I back off just as quickly, because I used to not do that, and I'm trying to be more empathetic and more aware of other people's vulnerabilities and whether they want to go there or not. I think that most people do, but not everyone does, and I think most people want to answer questions, but not every question. Making sure that you're staying connected to what's happening in the moment and reading the room is very important.

Speaker 1: 13:39

Yeah, I like that idea of not letting your curiosity get the better of empathy, but making sure you got that balance, and that's great. You mentioned an interesting word heard which is fascinating because, as we do all of our research about why do customers and guests give feedback to businesses, the number one thing that comes up is they want to feel heard. Obviously, you've been involved in hundreds of different businesses maybe even thousands at this point and specifically with Big Chicken. I think it's interesting because you're taking a lot of these lessons that you're learning. You're helping to guide the vision. Obviously, the whole team led by Josh over there is incredible. But what do you think is the most important aspect of guest experience nowadays? Yeah, caring.

Speaker 2: 14:23

It's just that simple word, caring. And I think the critical part is to make sure that caring exists in each step of the customer's experience, and that is not intuitive. That's not just going to happen because you opened your doors. That only happens when you're intentional about it. We're fortunate because Shaquille is our largest shareholder and he's my partner in the business, and there's a guy where caring comes so naturally to him. So one of our core values is do it the Shaquille way, and what that means is to care to really spend time and show love for everyone that comes into your orbit.

Speaker 2: 15:08

That's the thing about Shaquille as a person that I admire the most is no matter who comes into his orbit, they end up walking away loving it. You've met him. He's just that kind soul who treats everyone equally. So we need to make sure that our business is a place that does that. I don't think that we've been as thorough as we have needed to be each step of the way, and I think that that's what we're so hyper-focused on as a team of injecting it, because that is what Shaquille would want and it's what he would do If it were just a single restaurant that he owned in Atlanta. That's how it would look. You have to figure out how do I systemize caring, and that takes intentionality.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Yeah, because I've always said that hospitality is proving to the guests that you care.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Because everyone's like, oh yeah, you asked 10 restaurants and you're like, hey, do you care about your guests Absolutely. Now you flip it around. You say how does your guests know that you care about them? There's that CS Lewis quote about if you were to be put on trial for being a Christian, like would you be found guilty? Is there enough evidence there?

Speaker 1: 16:20

And I think, similarly to the guest perspective, what is the proof that you care? And here's the beautiful thing that we found in restaurants is that the bar is so low, like you don't need to do some grandiose thing to care. I mean, I have Will Godera's book behind me about unreasonable hospitality and one of the huge ways that he showed that he cared. And one of the trademark stories is the famous story of him going and getting a New York hot dog, cutting it up into four and giving it to these four people. And it's like it's the little things that matter, right, because it's hard to fake the little things. You could fake the big things. On Mother's Day I could go all out and buy a diamond, tennis bracelet and all this stuff, but then if I'm a jerk, the other 364 days it doesn't really matter. I guess, looking at that caring. What are some tactics that you've used in your career to show that you care?

Speaker 2: 17:10

When it comes to the restaurant business, it's honestly, listening to what our reviewers are saying. They're willing to tell you. Think about that. Think about what the experience is between the restaurateur and the customer or the guest. They're not only willing to take their harder, money and their time to give you a shot, but if you blow the shot, they're willing to take even more time to tell you how you could be better. Talk about kindness. Talk about a shot. They're willing to take even more time to tell you how you could be better. Talk about kindness. Talk about a gift.

Speaker 2: 17:42

I know some folks who you know. I really don't get involved in my reviews because sometimes I can be too negative and it freaks me out too much. I respect that. I respect that it's difficult at times, but you're missing the gift. You're missing the very lesson that telling you that they're trying to teach you.

Speaker 2: 17:57

That book that you talked about, unreasonable Hospitality is such a great example. Because that hot dog story he was just listening. As they were walking in, they were saying, hey, we've been to New York and we never got a hot dog while we were here. Well, they were going to maybe America's greatest restaurant and he heard them. In that instance they weren't even trying to intentionally tell him what they were looking for, but he still went out of his way to say I can do an intentional act that addresses what your needs are. It's just the relationship, the back and forth.

Speaker 2: 18:32

That's why I think honestly what you do is so important, zach. I think that ovation is critical for success, because you have a real chance to improve every day. Goes back to what my dad's lesson was You're not a good lawyer until you screwed up 100 cases. You're not a good business person until you've screwed up 100 deals. You're not a good restaurateur until you've jacked up 100 people's orders. But, man, if you can get feedback on those and learn the lesson only once and not learn it more than that, that's the recipe for success. Right there. That's going to get you to where you want to go.

Speaker 1: 19:07

And that's why I feel like you all have been such great partners at Big Chicken, because you have that DNA of caring. And that's one of the things that we tell people about Ovation is I'm like hey, we're a tool and if you don't use it and if you don't care about how the tool could be used, it's not going to help you. I can't help bad restaurants become amazing, but what I can do is give someone the knowledge, the information, the tools, the frictionless experience to have them understand what they need to do to become amazing. But, like you said, it's about caring. And caring isn't just about making it right with that one guest although that it is but it's about learning that lesson so you don't make it wrong for the next guest. And I think that's exactly that idea of continuous improvements, something that I can see throughout your career and is just oozing at big chicken. Getting here to the end of the podcast, Perry, who deserves an ovation, who's someone that we should be following? You mean in?

Speaker 2: 20:02

the restaurant space.

Speaker 1: 20:04

Yeah, or I guess for you. I guess who are some people that you follow, that you think are inspirational, that you think would be good for other people to follow?

Speaker 2: 20:11

Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm fortunate I represent Jason Tatum and to me he's such a great example of this entire conversation. Here's a guy who has just been obliterated by the media for the last two years for not having won a championship. He's 26 now. He's now one, and Jordan hadn't won at 26. Shaquille hadn't. I'm trying to think of other players that haven't won a 26. It's a long, great list of incredible players and Jason has, and he did that because he just kept driving toward making improvements and letting the people who were critics drive him toward that Again. I think that all this stems from the ability to be courageous enough to listen to what the criticism is and then to fight like hell to overcome it. For me, it's Jason Tatum. I'm so happy for him, I'm so impressed by him. To do what he's done at this age is just incredible. So that would be mine.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Awesome. He's an icon, so that's incredible. And where can people go to learn more if they want to follow you? Perry, do you ever post on X? Are you on LinkedIn?

Speaker 2: 21:22

I am on LinkedIn. It's Perry Rogers, no Dean Rogers. I am on Instagram and that's it. I'm not on Twitter.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Awesome. And then we've had Josh on before, so everyone knows where to find Big Chicken. Perry, thanks for having us on and for teaching us how to choose effort and perspective. Today's ovation goes to you. Thank you for joining us and give an ovation. Awesome. Thanks, zach. I appreciate your time. Awesome, dude Perry, that was so good man. Thanks for joining us today. If you liked this episode, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen. We're all about feedback here. Again, this episode was sponsored by Ovation, a two-question, sms-based, actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants. If you'd like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience, visit us at OvationUpcom.