Today we sit down with Shake Shack's CIO, Dave Harris. As you can imagine, he had some great insights on tech stacks, the balance between human and tech-centered hospitality, and the potential he sees AI having on the industry.
If you're looking for some high level views on tech in your restaurant, as well as some in-the-weeds tactics, you'll love this episode.
Thanks, Dave!
Today we sit down with Shake Shack's CIO, Dave Harris. As you can imagine, he had some great insights on tech stacks, the balance between human and tech-centered hospitality, and the potential he sees AI having on the industry.
If you're looking for some high level views on tech in your restaurant, as well as some in-the-weeds tactics, you'll love this episode.
Thanks, Dave!
Welcome to another edition of Give an Ovation, the restaurant guest experience podcast, where I talk to industry experts to get their strategies and tactics you can use to create a five-star guest experience. This podcast is sponsored by Ovation, an operations and guest recovery platform for multi-unit restaurants that gives all the answers without annoying guests with all the questions. Learn more at OvationUpcom. And today it is our privilege to welcome to the podcast Mr Dave Harris. What's up, dave? How are you? Hey, zach, I'm great. How are you today? You know, I'm just cheery and I'm so glad that you are. As we discussed right before this call, you are based in New England. I see that you have accepted the accent you are based in New England.
Speaker 2:I see that you have accepted the accent. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm glad you. You know some people think I was born and raised in Brooklyn or even in Texas, but I'm glad you correctly picked out the New England accent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we go Standard New England accent, at least one of the Englands. Anyway, for those who might not be familiar with Dave, he is the CIO of Shake Shack, formerly CIO of Yankee Candle Company, and was a tech leader at Legends, jetblue, avis, virgin Atlantic. You've had a lot of transportation stuff in there, dave, and I'm glad that you've switched over into our side to transport food to our bellies, and so I have to start off with a hard-hitting question that you know your press team may not like and it may be a bit offensive, but what is your favorite scent of Yankee Candles?
Speaker 2:Sun and Sand is my favorite scent. So I'll tell you a story. When I was at Yankee Candle, you used to be able to have your favorite scent put on your business card. So my favorite scent is and it was in my email signature. That's my favorite and I even had that in my email signature at the time.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, I'm assuming it's not like a scratch and sniff business card, it just has it printed. It didn't actually smell like that, did it Actually? It?
Speaker 2:did no, yes, it was fantastic, so I was always reminded it was no, yes, it was fantastic, so I was always reminded it was my favorite.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is really cool. And give me the name one more time Sun and Sand. Yes, okay, all right. Well, I know what I'm getting myself for my next birthday. Well, and Dave, when are they going to come out with a Shake Shack candle? Because I'll buy that, noted.
Speaker 1:Customer of one. I will request that. Hopefully you wouldn't be the only one. Yeah, so you know running tech at a great company like Shake Shack. You know you've been able to see a lot of different things and technology from the top. The question is, what do most brands get wrong when it comes to technology?
Speaker 2:That's a really great question. I really think about what brands? Let me talk about the ones that do it right. Let me put it that way Because I think you know, ultimately, technology is there to enable guest experience, right. So the idea is not to get the technology for the technology's sake. It's because this is the experience we want to deliver and we think this can make that experience better. So then, as long as you stay true to that, this is how this technology supports not just our business and that's important too it's got to help your business but, very importantly, helps that guest experience I think you can't go wrong.
Speaker 1:And talking about that guest experience, what do you think is the most important aspect of guest experience nowadays?
Speaker 2:Such a tough question. You know I don't think of it as a cop out, but I think every single step is important. You know guests have so many options and I think the key is putting guest experience at the heart of what you do, regardless of channel. I'll share a little family experience to illustrate that. You know my wife and daughters were on a trip recently. They went to check in at a hotel nice hotel. It was a historic building and a great sort of downtown. They were really excited for the trip and they had a really rough check-in experience and it was so bad. After that, the fact that the rooms were great, the fact that the service was great there was always this sort of it was always overshadowed by how rough the check-in experience had been. So you can sort of recover a little bit, but I think people remember those parts now. So you've really got to deliver on every aspect of the experience all the time, I think.
Speaker 1:Super difficult, yeah, right. And then especially, I look at it this way If you think about a scale and if you think about where the guest says I had a good guest experience or I had a bad guest experience, the problem is there's a thousand things that need to go on that good side to go right. But if you look at the fulcrum of where that scale is, it is so heavily focused, it is so heavily moved over to the negative experience side, to the point that one thing goes wrong and the whole experience is soured. I think that comes down to the point of, like a vending machine, you put in a dollar and you get out a candy bar. Are you thrilled? No, you got what you paid for. Now, if you put in a dollar and the candy bar doesn't come out, it's not a big deal, right, it's a dollar. But people will just smash into that vending machine, right? Because they want to get what they paid for, regardless of how big or small a burger or a house, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and expectations, I think, have gone up. I think people are when they spend a hard-earned dollar on an experience, they want it to be great and they have a certain expectation and they want that to be met and I think it's really important to do it, and it's not just that time, it's every time. Consistency is really important in this, and particularly in restaurants. Now there's so many different types of experience. You could be walking into the restaurant to order and have a welcome from a person. You could be going into an app to order and getting a welcome and having your ordering experience digitally.
Speaker 1:All of those things have to work seamlessly and, as I say, they have to do it every time to nail it every time, but I think that what you said, though, is really important, is like when you make that guest experience the heartbeat of everything else, then it creates some much more streamlined approach to things, and there's a lot of you know. We're just talking about going to MerTech, right? There's one of the 4,000 restaurant shows a year, and there's so much cool technology out there. Dave, how do you avoid over-indexing on your tech stack and how do you keep that guest in the center of it?
Speaker 2:I think it's starting with what is the experience we're trying to deliver, or what's our opportunity. Sometimes it may be the problem we're trying to solve, but really what's the experience we're trying to deliver? Because if you solution for that experience, then the technology is a component of it. It's never all of it, but it's a component of it, and I think that's the most important part.
Speaker 1:I think that is so right. And as you look at the tech stack, there are so many bells and whistles right. There's so many things that you can add to it, and we oftentimes find these companies that have so many different pieces of technology and none of them are communicating. Obviously, at Shake Shack you could kind of point to two vendors and say, play nice, or we're canceling, and you know they want Shake Shack to be really happy. What do you recommend for someone who's a smaller shop? Maybe they only have like 10 pizzerias. How do they build a tech stack that still gets the right things done without these silos?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a huge challenge as the fragmentation in the industry with different solutions. I think that over the last couple of years, I've seen players begin to emerge that can offer smaller groups a much bigger toolkit, because I think ideally you'd be able to get all of the features you need from one place where it's already integrated. You don't need a tech team who's going to troubleshoot or make the pieces work together. I've seen those emerging and I think that's very important. It's not that there'll only ever be one tech solution in a restaurant and there's always going to be several, but I think, as people have seen, if you end up with eight or 10 different pieces, that's really hard to maintain and keep working together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know some people where they've got 15, 20 different pieces and they, you know, at best loosely talk to each other, right? And that's one of the things like when COVID happened, we ended up having to hire a full-time dev person just to build integrations, and we built over 50 integrations. Because of that point, of that fragmentation makes every time you slice that data, it becomes less valuable, and so you have to have that centralized repository at the very least to communicate, right.
Speaker 2:Ideally, and you're right, the integration is absolutely key between whatever tech components you've got. So I think as groups get larger, then there's more integration work to do. You've got more systems to connect to each other and it's important. Those things work absolutely. But yes, again it's back to the guest experience thing we were talking about before. At the end of the day, if the pieces of the jigsaw don't talk to each other, then your experience gets broken, and that's the thing that can't happen. So I think it shows how important that is.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Now. I love that strategy of like put the guest in the center and everything else is kind of a spoke off of that. What are some tactics that you guys have used at Shake Shack to improve the guest experience?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a fan of self-service kiosks as an ordering option. That's an option. Last year we completed a retrofit program that deployed kiosks across nearly all of our restaurants that didn't already have them. They're great for the guest, I guess really like using them. They perform great from a business perspective, so I'm a fan of those. But even that, we're constantly looking to improve the kiosk experience. So last year was about focusing on making the menu easier to navigate, so guests can order their shack exactly the way they like it. And then guest feedback and insights are key to driving that ongoing improvement. So I think that's a great tool.
Speaker 1:Can I ask is it public who you guys use for your kiosks? We build our own. Oh, naturally. I mean, when you have Dave freaking Harris at the helm, build it, baby.
Speaker 2:We build our own software and, yes, that's what we do.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Wow, that's impressive. Not too many people can pull that off. Yeah, that's awesome, okay, cool. Sorry, I cut you off, I was just curious.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's all right. So I think everyone's focused on creating personalized experiences for guests. So I think that's the thing, and I see different companies at different stages on that journey. There's a lot of different things to personalization. You hear it talked about a lot. It'd be great to recognize people in terms of and say, would you like this order again, or be able to make relevant suggestions to be able. So the person feels that you know them and are trying to deliver service specifically for them. So I think that's a great option. You know great development.
Speaker 1:On the flip side, though, Dave, I don't know if you saw, recently there was a M&M Mars vending machine, and in Canada it's gone viral because there was an error message that popped up on it, and the error message was there's some sort of bug with the facial recognition and, and the whole campus like went up in arms. And this picture has gone viral. Viral because there's that the other side of that token of personalization is privacy, right, and so how do you balance that? Hey, I want personalization, but I want it without you knowing anything about me, so wave your magic tech wand and make that happen. Like, how do we do that?
Speaker 2:I think it's about optionality and being able to customize and have the experience that's right for you.
Speaker 2:So to be able to say, I don't want this level of personalization or this is the kind of experience I want, I think that's very important to be able to do. And then for us as well, there's lots of ways technology can be used, but it doesn't mean you should use it that way. So again, it comes back to the journey and what guests are looking for. You really have to understand what kind of experience your guest is looking for and how they feel about different technologies, so that you know how to implement the pieces that are right for your business. And again, different brands, customers, different customers in different settings have different expectations and different needs, and I think that's what it's great about the industry and it's great about technology is that it enables you to create what's right for your organization and your brand and your guests and your operators, rather than something generic that everybody has the same thing, and I think that's really important. As well as supporting experience, the technology is kind of delivering on the brand promise as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, right behind me I keep what I refer to as the old and new Testament. You know the Will, guderian's Unreasonable Hospitality and Danny Meyer's Setting the Table.
Speaker 2:I got the other one too. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:They are both. That constitutes the Bible of hospitality, those two books. But the beautiful thing is that Shake Shack. You look at that and you're like, well, yeah, but you're Shake Shack and you were started by Danny Meyer and all this stuff. But the beautiful thing is that the principles in these books are universal. You could take them to your one location, you know, burger joint, or to Shake Shack, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think as well. Those principles need to live through the. You know technology can support those principles. If it's not supporting them, then that's maybe the wrong use of the technology. So the principles are transcendent from that perspective.
Speaker 1:I love that, Just taking some notes here, because I think that makes so much sense and I think that having hospitality and technology are not at odds. Just find the right technology to support your philosophy and what your customers are wanting right.
Speaker 2:It's what, and I'd add on to that saying it's about finding the technology and implementing it in the way that's right for you. Most technology these days comes with a myriad of configuration options and implementation options so that you can really customize it for the needs of your brand and your guests, and I think that's so important as a key principle. I love that.
Speaker 1:So, dave, who is someone that deserves an ovation in the restaurant industry, who's someone that we should be following?
Speaker 2:I had to think about this and my answer is actually entrepreneurs. That's the people you should be following. So I've been really excited that the last few years there's been an acceleration of innovation in the restaurant space. It started with generally guest facing and now it's operational, and whether it be in the kitchen or in other places as well, so it's spread throughout the restaurant and I think those new ideas and that new innovation coming in is really helping improve the technology that's available to restaurants to support their business. And that, for me, is the biggest thing following all of these entrepreneurs creating solutions, and some of them are very specific in the problem they're trying to solve. Some of them are creating broader suites of features, whether it be everything to do with staffing in a restaurant or everything to do with operating a kitchen, but all of those solutions are helping technology, improve guest experience and create profitable restaurants, which is important.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate the shout out as someone who can take one one millionth of the credit in there.
Speaker 2:You're included. It's like it's very, very, very important.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts on automated phone and AI?
Speaker 2:I think AI and machine learning have been around for a while now and I'm starting to see those more prevalent in all of the restaurant innovation that we've been talking about in the package applications available for restaurants. I think Gen AI is obviously the new frontier, has a lot of promise for restaurants, but it's super early days and there's still a lot of hype around it, so I think those solutions need to settle out a bit and we'll begin delivering value for restaurants very quickly. Lots of potential uses. But I think it goes hand in hand with data, because, as we know, ai, and particularly GenAI, is only effective with great data and as restaurants build more data and have more information on their operations, then GenAI can add more value.
Speaker 1:And when you're talking about Gen AI, give some examples of what could Gen AI do.
Speaker 2:I think Gen AI will help with things like translation, translation and language, being able to support multiple languages more easily than is today. It's not the solutions can't support that. It's just hard. Today, even with AI, it's a little hard, so Gen AI will make that easier. I think we're going to see an expansion of voice interaction in the kitchen so as people interact and complete various tasks in the kitchen. I think GenAI will enable those voice solutions Again. There are some of them today, but I think there'll be a lot better with the application of the power that Gen AI brings. So be more conversational, more flexible and more dynamic in what they can do.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I think that is so critical. And one of the things about AI is you know we do a lot of work with AI. We have our own model built that takes all the unstructured data that we pull in from our surveys from Google, facebook, doordash, tripadvisor, grubhub and we break that down into 34 categories. So now you get it's as if you asked a long survey but guests are only answering two questions. So we try to get the hospitality side of it of like that one-to-one engagement. I mean, as it says in here, one of my favorite quotes is hospitality is a dialogue, right, and so often what we have is we have this desire to collect data about guests and so because of that, we get so few guests to give us a lot of data. What we're realizing is you can get all the data if you get more guests to give you a little bit. A lot of guests giving you a little bit is worth more than a little bit of guests giving you a lot.
Speaker 2:Right, you have to be able to show guests how that data will benefit their experience. I go back to things like Google Maps. We all share a fair amount of data with Google Maps or whatever Maps software that you use, because it helps us get from A to B in the way we want or it helps us get to an appointment on time. So the value prop for the consumer is very clear in terms of giving that data, and I think it's the same when it comes to using data to support guest experience. You're right, a little bit can go a very long way and the value prop has to be clear. But also, if you look at it in the kitchen, the idea of being able to use this technology to really help manage the flow of orders.
Speaker 2:So today, orders come from every direction, right? It used to be generally. You walked into a restaurant, you placed an order and the kitchen worked through those orders. Now they're coming from delivery providers and they're coming from apps and websites and kiosks and counters and orders coming from every single direction. Counters and orders coming from every single direction. I think being able to organize those and help the kitchen plan for them and anticipate them is another potential use of Gen AI. It's another great application.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, a group that does it really well is Cluster Truck Kitchen. I mean, like they have some incredible technology that helps with that, and I've gotten a tour of their facility a couple of times and, man, they've got a sweet ironed out shop where they know when to drop the fries, based on how well done the burger is, and when to put in the cookies, and so everything's done at the same time. So from the time everything's done to the time it's delivered, it's like seven minutes. The time everything's done to the time it's delivered, it's like seven minutes, right From pan to mouth with the delivery. It's like it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Absolutely that orchestration. It is like an orchestra You've got to conduct with different pieces. I think we'll see more and more of that. It sounds amazing, and I think we'll see more and more of that in restaurants as well, so it can help the back of house enormously too. It will be fun to see how these things develop, and so it's early days, and I think now everyone's trying to figure out where to dip their toe in. Is it with their partners, their solution partners they're already working with, and many of them are adding machine learning and AI into those solutions. Is it with their own infrastructure? If they have the resources to do that, everyone's going to come into a different place, but no doubt I think there's a lot of opportunity out there and we'll see more and more over the next couple of years Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love that. So, dave, where can people go to learn more either about, well, shake Shack? Obviously go to all the Shake Shack sites and pretty easy to find that. What if people want to learn more about Dave Harrison? Do you post on social media a lot. Where can people go to learn your musings?
Speaker 2:You can follow me on LinkedIn and you're right. You can follow Shake Shack on all the major social media outlets.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, from the old England to the new and maybe improved England, empowering the tech of the best, from travel to smells, to bellies, today's ovation goes to you, dave. Thank you so much for joining us on Give an Ovation.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me on the podcast. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3:Thanks for joining us today. If you liked this episode, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen. We're all about feedback here. Again, this episode was sponsored by Ovation, a two question SMS based actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants. If you'd like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience, visit us at OvationUpcom.