Give an Ovation: The Restaurant Guest Experience Podcast with Zack Oates
Give an Ovation: The Restaurant Guest Experience Podcast is your backstage pass to the minds of hospitality leaders, innovators, and operators who are redefining what it means to serve. Hosted by Zack Oates, founder of Ovation, each episode dives into real-world tactics and inspiring stories from restaurant pros who know how to create five-star guest experiences—both in-store and off-premise.
From fast casual to fine dining, catering to curbside, learn how to drive loyalty, empower your staff, and deliver hospitality that hits home. Whether you're a restaurant owner, operator, marketer, or tech partner, this podcast will leave you with practical insights and plenty of reasons to celebrate and Give an Ovation.
Give an Ovation: The Restaurant Guest Experience Podcast with Zack Oates
Inclusive Leadership: Transforming the Restaurant Industry with James Pogue
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Experience a revealing conversation as we delve into the intricate world of diversity, inclusion, and belonging (DIB) in the restaurant industry with Dr. James Pogue. You'll gain a new appreciation for the importance of DIB and its role in enhancing productivity, igniting innovation, and strengthening collaboration.
On this episode, you'll learn from James about:
- DIBs
- Inclusive leadership
- Creating a sense of belonging across experiences
- Understanding but not limiting team members
- More!
Thanks, James!
Exploring Diversity, Inclusion, and Belonging
Speaker 1Welcome to another edition of Give an Ovation , the Restaurant Guest Experience podcast , where I talk to industry experts to get their strategies and tactics you can use to create a five-star guest experience . This podcast is sponsored by Ovation , a two-question SMS-based real-time guest feedback platform that helps restaurants measure and improve their guest experience . Learn more at ovationupcom . And today we have Dr James Pogue , which and even though , if you see his name , it's Pogue Like Vogue is what I was thinking , is that right , pogue Like Vogue with a P ? Here we go , and , if you , I saw him at the Prosper Conference in Jacksonville , florida this year . That's where we met through some mutual friends and my man was styling . He was Vogue on Vogue . I loved his , loved your outfit , loved your demeanor , loved what you were about , and he has spent 15 years helping leaders and team members understand how to connect better one another through the lens of diversity , inclusion and belonging . And , james , thanks for joining us on GivenOvation .
Speaker 2Absolutely . Now I'm infected by the ZAC energy .
Speaker 1I know we were sitting here having , literally right before we hit record . He was , like you know , I like to be calm , a little more reserved than most people . I'm like , all right , let's hit record , yeah .
Speaker 2But you know what I will say ? That all of my best friends have a different personality . They're a bit more energetic , a bit more like woohoo , which I'm fine with . I'm like you know , sometimes I want to go do something . I don't know if I really should . Oh , come on , James , let's go . All right , let's go , let's go .
Speaker 1Love that . So talk to us a little bit about diversity , inclusion and belonging . We were chatting about this right before we hit record as well , and there's . You know it's an interesting take because normally I hear DEI right , and a lot of people know what DEI means , but I wasn't as familiar with the phrase the DIB . So talk to me a little bit about the difference between DEI and DIB diversity , inclusion and belonging .
Speaker 2The in general is the idea that both there are acronyms for words and the words are less important than the concept , and how the concept infects us , as you or energy does me , and how all of these things can help us be better leaders and make better teams . So , conceptually , the broad idea is there are deep connections between team members and leaders , make for better production , make for higher innovation , make for more creativity , and all of that leads to greater profits , and there's a period at the end of that . The data has been in for about 15 , 18 years , right ? So then the question becomes how do we connect , how do we keep deep connections , how do we make more deep connections ?
Speaker 2Well , there are some things that get in the way speed bumps , and a lot of those things that get in the way are in the broadly speaking inclusion world . Five years , 10 years , 20 years ago , diversity , equity , inclusion , affirmative action , civil rights all of these were the words of the day and unfortunately , sometimes those words get snatched and dunked in negativity and then when someone brings them up , it can easily derail a very important conversation . So in today's marketplace , somebody says DEI , their mind can go a certain way , and about being woke , or about being captivated or compromised in some kind of way that is way outside of the needs that people have to be connected .
Speaker 2So , what we use is diversity , inclusion and belonging . Right , dibs and in part I chose that because the dibs is easy to say . Right , you gotta have something people are gonna remember . Right and DEI was easy to say but then folks grab that and dunked it in this negativity . So my job with my clients is to help them to understand that deep connections help make for better teams . Easy sell Second some things get in the way of that easy sell . Some of those things are inclusion related and we'll help you find the language , the tools and the strategies to get out ahead of it so you can win .
Speaker 1So talk to me about this strategic mindset , about switching , because basically what you've done is you've replaced the word equity with the word belonging , right ? So ? Because there's diversity and inclusion and those two things , you said , hey , these ones are . After it's been dumped in negativity , these two things have remained and you've replaced equity with belonging . Talk to me about the difference between , in your mind , or maybe how you perceive , how others perceive the words equity and the words belonging .
Speaker 2Sure . So what ? Equity is a bit challenging for people to sometimes gather . We need very simple definitions for very complex concepts that can be tough .
Diversity, Inclusion, and Belonging in Leadership
Speaker 2In order for me to get you invested in the conversation , I have to give you something you can easily digest Very easily digest .
Speaker 2Number one , diversity , is pretty simple . For all the things we can legally count , every organization is diverse . Diversity is way more than race and way more than gender and way more than sexuality . It's also geography . It's also spirituality or religion . It's also differing abilities . It's also age .
Speaker 2We have what we call the dibs or diversity , inclusion of belonging . In big nine . These are the most impactful areas of diversity . My favorite color is Emerald Green , but every day of the week my age is more impactful to how I see the world and how the world sees me than my favorite color . Yeah , easy to sell , easy to digest . Then there's inclusion .
Speaker 2I've never met a leader yet when I say would you like to be a more inclusive leader , meaning anyone can follow you , you can lead anyone , doesn't matter where they're from , what language they speak , whether they've got a wife or a husband , two kids or no kids . I can lead you , you can follow me . Let's go . Do you want to be that kind of leader ? Easy sell . Easy to digest Belonging . I want to belong to your team . You want to belong to my team . We should be in service to one another . That's the connection helps me run through fire for you . Do you want me to belong to you ? Do you want to belong to me ? Answer is yes . Easy sell . It's not that equity isn't important , it's that sometimes these things can be a bit more complex to get into the conversation . I need to get you in first , and then the rest of this helps the medicine go down .
Speaker 1I like that . What do you do when you're in an area that maybe doesn't have a lot of obvious diversity ? I mean , I lived in downtown San Francisco . I lived in New York City . You walk out of the street . It's a very diverse area , very diverse community In Dallas . There's some of the areas you walk around in Dallas . Some areas are diverse and some areas are very not diverse in both ways . Some areas everyone looks brown , everyone looks dark , some areas everyone looks white . And so if you're in an area let's say that you're in an area where it's a predominantly white area and you're running a restaurant , how do you sponsor dibs ?
Speaker 2in your restaurant , sure . So the first thing we have to do is remember that diversity has always been more than what I can see Right , what I believe you can't see Right , but a lot of people don't necessarily see it that way right , I agree , and so when I walk through the door , that's one of the first things I'm going to say .
Speaker 2Diversity has always been more than what we can see . Always we have been wrapped up into conversations that distract us and derail us into thinking it's about who looks this way and who looks that way . Right , it's always been more than that . Right , we have to give ourselves permission to see and feel and touch and believe it all Because in that small town in Midland Texas , where everybody looks more or less alike , where everybody kind of worships more or less alike , everybody doesn't have the same number of kids . Everybody's not married , somebody lost their wife or husband to a terrible incident and somebody's been single their whole life . That's two different ways of being single .
Speaker 2Yeah so we need to understand the person next to us . Although they may look like me , has had a different experience life , and that's OK , and then expect them to bring that difference to the decision-making table . Right , and we have this phrase we say bring your whole self to the office . Do you mean it ? Do you really mean it ? Because , if so , I'm a widower . I lost my wife to cancer and every now and again I'm feeling sad and I understand what it's like to feel lost , right ? Okay , well , how do we use that to inform how we care for our clients or our guests in our restaurants , right ? How do we use his experience , my experience , her experience , their experience ?
Speaker 1And first of all , I'm so sorry for your loss . I think that's something that I oh no , no , that wasn't me .
Speaker 2I'm saying , that was an example .
Speaker 1Okay , all right . Well , I'm happy that that didn't happen to you , but it's one of those things where my sister she called me up one day . She was bawling and her husband's name is Luke , and she was hysterically crying and she said Luke was hit by a car and tears came to my eyes and I'm just like , oh my gosh , I am so sorry , like what happened ? And she said dad led him out of the house . And I was like what I said ? Yeah , dad led him out of the house and he was crossing the street and got hit by a car . And I was like why did dad let Luke out of the house ? Like I don't understand . Like what are you talking about ? And in her hysterics I misunderstood her . She was saying Rue , which was one of our dogs . It was still very , very sad , but just in comparison to what I thought it was , anyway , she's still happily married to Luke and he did not get hit by a car . Rue unfortunately did not make it , but that's a great point , though was like , how do you take these life experiences and put them in ? But here's the balance .
Speaker 1I always wonder about James how do you welcome people to bring their experiences in , but not like , define people by them , Like , for example , my wife and I . Well , she primarily teaches a youth Sunday school class and one of the kids in the class had his father . His father passed away a few years ago due to cancer . And a lot of times when we get to a discussion topic like I want to turn to him and say , hey , how has grace affected your life , given that you lost your father ? Right , but I don't want to constantly ask him about that if he doesn't want to bring it up . So how do you allow for that ? And that's the balance , right ? Yes , I recognize that there's diversity . I want to help them feel comfortable talking about it , but I also don't want them to feel like they're defined by that moment in their life or that thing that maybe they don't necessarily define themselves by right . It's a tricky balance . How do we approach that , do you ?
Speaker 2think . Well , I'd start with saying what you just described is the heavy yoke of leadership Always searching for the balance , always searching for balance . I used to compete in karate a lot a hundred years ago national championships , world championships and my instructor would have us do things in the off season that were different from the regular work that we would do . I said well , you know what ? I don't know what I'm going to do . He says you should try rollerblading . I said look , I'm not doing that . I'm not going to put on all these pads and be all bundled up and be sliding around the earth . I'm not doing it . He says that's your problem . He says you need to go and rollerblade , figure it out .
Speaker 2He says it's just like everything else in life . It's the eternal search for balance , right , and so the leader has to have the courage to know that this person over here has had loss shaped this way , right , father ? This person has had loss shaped differently . My pet right Loss is loss , loss is loss . You know a very wise person . My sister told me this Loss is loss and it can burn you up , eat you up , instruct you in different ways . There's a phrase , I think it's Tolkien that said it what punishments of God are not gifts ? Right , and so a person believes in that framework , helping them struggle towards . How do you use the loss of dad or the loss of your favorite pet to make you a better hospitality professional ? Yeah , right , because I can see things differently , I can smell things differently , the air is sweeter . Each moment means more to me . Might be this person's answer Right . Another person's answer might be something different , but I expect you to figure out and I'm going to help you use that loss to make you a better professional . I'm not your therapist , I'm your leader , I'm your teammate Right , but it's going to make us better . It's going to make us more deeply connected , and if we're more deeply connected , we can ask more of one another and pull more out of one another . Deeply connected teams win at a higher rate than everyone else , and all these different pieces of diversity that make up the guts of who we are help us with that . They can get in the way , but as leaders , we can learn to leverage that and have the courage to jump off the cliff that's in front of us .
Speaker 2Right , with grace , I mean you brought that as a word we use a lot over here Grace , grace , grace , right , I'm going to ask you some questions . Hey , you know the example you gave . How has your father's situation helped ? You see ? Now let's translate that to adults . I'm a 35 year old person working in your restaurant . I'm going to give you the grace to yeah , you can check on me , right , it's okay , check on me please , and if you check on me wrong , I'm going to give you the grace to see that . Well , you know what , zach , he was trying . He cares about me . Right , it was Father's Day coming up . He didn't know whether or not to give me the day off or to ask me to work . He didn't know . So he came to me and said he didn't schedule me for that day because he just figured I'd want the day off . He didn't know that I'd rather be busy .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2That I love seeing other people and their fathers in the restaurant . It reminds me of Dad . He didn't know , so I give him grace and I say , zach , why did you schedule me off ? Oh , I thought you might want the time . You should have asked me . Nice , yeah .
Speaker 1I think that that makes it that's so true , because I think what happens is especially what in my private conversations with a lot of leaders who don't , in your words , look diverse they fear bringing up diversity because they fear saying something wrong , right , they don't want to say the wrong thing , to trigger , to offend , to make somebody feel like they don't belong by calling out a difference , be it mental , be it life experience , be it cultural , skin color , whatever .
Speaker 1And I think that's what would you say to someone that's afraid to bring up diversity , because maybe they feel like and I know I've felt this personally where I want to talk about diversity , but sometimes I don't want people to think like , oh , here's just the white guy talking about diversity , right , yes , but I've got a very diverse experience in life , but I don't want to say the wrong thing , I don't want to offend someone who was going to be like oh well , he's trying to single me out because I'm different than him and my thing is , to your point , we're all different from each other . It's just different looks different depending on where we are . So what would you say to that person who worries about bringing it up the wrong ?
Speaker 2way .
Speaker 2Two things I would share . One is , again , it's about being a leader . Right , decisions that are made from a fear-based platform are often wrong-headed decisions . And you don't have the luxury , right , you don't have the luxury as the leader who raised their hand and said follow me . Right , you don't have that luxury . You have to , you must , you must find the courage in the absence of confidence , in the absence of comfort , sometimes in the absence of knowledge . You have to have courage . You must . Right , I didn't say it was fair , but you're the leader , so lead Right .
Speaker 2The second thing I would say is , if we want to succeed , if we want to win , if we want to be able to learn more and explore ideas , we have to risk offending one another . We have to risk it , right , we have to risk offense . And so you know , zach risked offense by not scheduling me for Father's Day . He risked it . He didn't know . He made a decision Right . I go back to him and say wait a second , why didn't you schedule me ? Oh , I figured you'd want that day off . You should have asked me . Now , I mean , I got an attitude . You should have asked me . You didn't even bother to ask me Translation . You've offended me .
Speaker 2Zach is the leader . Sorry about that , my fault . I'm going to ask you for a little grace . How can we work this out ? I want to make this right . You must risk offense and in today's marketplace I get it it's a little scary , especially for the big asks . So you surround yourself with people that you can pressure test your ideas on , pressure test your conversations on Right . That's a fine strategy . But as the leader , you don't have the luxury of sitting in the background . Go , stand out , front , where you belong . I love that .
Speaker 1James , how do people ? I mean , this has been such an enlightening conversation . I've loved having you on . I wish this podcast were three hours and I think we'd have 20 hours of content here . But , James , how do people find and follow you or reach out if they want you to come and speak at their so our website , jamespoguecom .
Speaker 2If you want to reach me there , I'm on the LinkedIn . As my grandmother calls it , jamespoguephd . Is there Otherwise JamesPoguecom , or info at JamesPoguecom . Yeah , we move around , so we'll hop on a plan and come hang out with you .
Speaker 1Awesome . Well , Dr James , for showing us that the scales of leadership does have a balance , and that is with a little bit of grace . Today's Ovation goes to you . We'll appreciate you joining us and giving Ovation , James .
Speaker 2Yes , sir Woo-hoo Zachary .
Speaker 1Thanks for joining us today . If you liked this episode , leave us a review on Apple Podcast or your favorite place to listen . We're all about feedback here . Again , this episode was sponsored by Ovation , a two-question , sms-based actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants . If you'd like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience , visit us at ovationupcom .